On Trade Unions

  http://rpr.ur.ruDiscussion Forum17.11.05-28.09.06On Trade UnionsVladimirJoined: 16.11.2005 Posts: 16
 Posted: November 17, 2005 6:46 am Post subject: On Trade Unions
 For the seed will ask the question: is there any organization in Russia, which have "to ensure and protect the interests of workers"? Some will say: What is it? There are even multi-million dollar FNPR others:Quote:"... Our union does not deal with any protection."Quote:"This is not a trade union - the enemy on the ground .... corrupt creature sitting!"Who is right? Let's see ...
  AP Guest
 Posted: November 19, 2005 6:35 am Post subject: A trade union
 Keep this topic at the Forum. Especially after the moderator so shamelessly blocked the theme of the site "Politucheba" on profforume in trud.org. Even outside the context of this cowardly act of support. As FITUR, it must be remembered that this perelitsovannaya of the All LZhEprofsoyuznogo monster structure.
Retained all of its Communist Party nomenklatura "-nye frames. Someday, I will give information about karernom growth of our local" bosses "oblsovprofa left on for a long time so after turning inside. In the meantime, just to remind you that one of them being on" his "position and in 2000., humbly welcomed the presidency of Boris Yeltsin's successor Vladimir comparison-Sun. Is not it telling? Career former anarcho-syndicalist A.Isaeva also very interesting.

I hope the subject live.AP Guest
 Posted: November 20, 2005 6:06 am Post subject: On Trade Unions
 On these unions propose for review and evaluation at the union "nastoyaschnost" site union retirees' Les Miserables »http://www.otvergenye.narod.ru./ No, it does not have a proposal to make a judgment. It's just a warning, where you can learn more about one of the union retirees. But the issue is, of course, does not and discussion.However, if any of the visitors have a desire to debate topics on "union retirees" are kindly requested to do so, building on what has already been subjected to refutation in the "Treatise," "Everyone has the right, if you have the right", and rather lengthy explanation, explanations and clarifications given in the sections "Beyond Category", "Community" and "union - government, trade unions - employers' forum on trud.org. Honestly tired of reading untenable popugayskoe tweeting, based on the "bastions" of ghost (vocabulary from the theme of "New Site ..." in the "trade union - the power, ...", I applied on the basis of evaluation of our "union" a prominent trade unionist French syndicate.)Potential disputants ask to start the aforesaid controversy, thoroughly passed through a Section 3 Art. 6 of the Law on Trade Unions and relevant my opinion. Our site reflects only a union suit (with a negative result on-today) on the conversion of labor pension disabled (yes them all - one, two and a handful). But this lawsuit is very revealing. With increasing my (pot) began training in the development of internet technology kompyutorno-site will be updated and other documents describing how and what did the union.Last download on the website "Question the President" made me so "successfully", which received a notification that the download took place and making sure this information to the section "File Management", find the "Question ..." on the site, I could not. By the way, no reaction of the President or his entourage on the question itself was not. So, "ask questions to the President" because he really needs them. And it does not contribute to it in his needs.FirmerJoined: 16.10.2005 Posts: 21
 Posted: November 20, 2005 9:24 am Post subject:
 Dear AP Thanks for the link, but there is no "free speech" - something otsutstvukt forum ...KlarkJoined: 28.10.2005 Posts: 62
 Posted: November 20, 2005 11:40 am Post subject:
 The debate unfolded on the trade union forum, on a branch, "The new site for employees' end of the closure of a branch manager Alexander Shershukovym. The above discussion, where the AP, Vladimir and Tevrizskii, offered to union members and all interested in this issue discuss the Federal Law that limits the tendency to form trade unions and union leadership to side with the employer showed that the speakers criticized the current board of trade union activity, calling it - LZhEprofsoyuzom were right. And also the fact that today's union leadership does not want to openly discuss the urgent problems of the existing trade unions are not willing to educate union members to work out the correct position, and seek to silence the problematic issues, so that uncontrolled use of trade-union insurance fund, and would not respond. But it also revealed that the trade union leadership, as well as government officials in their use of the same methods, as happened with the closure of the debate. First, they organize a provocation, calling the administrator (myself) - the executioner, and then under the guise of an offended boy cover a much needed debate on the burning issue. So look, and draw conclusions, fellow members of these unions. Come and learn site "Politucheba," where free speech is actually not as visible, where there are no police at any moment ready to deny all and all put in jail.AP Guest
 Posted: November 22, 2005 6:57 am Post subject: About the forum on the site "Les Miserables"
 Quote:Dear AP Thanks for the link, but there is no "free speech" - something otsutstvukt forum ...I do not understand, dear Firmer, why do you forum on the site "Les Miserables." But above all: in any case, thanks for the "thank you". As for the flaw, it seems to me that you want to debate on the topic "Right retired to the establishment of a pensioner's union" and "Why union retiree?". My answer is you can find in the article "Everyone is ... if you have ..." in the subject line "Right retired ..." In "Beyond Category" Profforuma in the subject "An exception of pensioners ..." in his own section "Communication" and the "trade union - the power, trade unions ..." in the subject line "New Site ...". It would not like interpreters for the same. One of these themes is not locked (see "Communication"). But the urge not to enter without passing through a thorough paragraph 3 of Article 6 of the Trade Union Act, Article 3 of the Law on public associations, and related ... my judgment. Otherwise I would have to react strongly, as I had to do there, assessing the ability to warn the poor talent (I use a vocabulary derived from the most evil bureaucratic allies of the tribe "nepuschayuschih"). And what about the forum can talk, if I, a kettle, still learning to manage the site. Also, is it from the footnotes on the Bench "sfise" is not clear that the union in a coma?KlarkJoined: 28.10.2005 Posts: 62
 Posted: November 23, 2005 3:35 pm Post subject:
  Unfolded at the trade union discussion forum is good to all, and evaluation of the Federal Law are correct, and links to international norms are unmistakable, and the role of trade unions today is defined correctly, but I have not heard that concern a simple member of the existing trade unions: what do you do? And it is in today, in my opinion, the most important thing.
  VladimirJoined: 16.11.2005 Posts: 16
 Posted: November 24, 2005 10:23 pm Post subject:
 First. Employees must understand that their interest is opposed to the interests of the employer, not the interests of production and society.Second. Only the employees, and only together (creating their own organizations) can protect their interest to the employer. While these organizations do not - workers in bondage, and the production and society - at a standstill.Third: Do not think that the owners will wait patiently until the employees are organized and begin to achieve a decent salary. Practice shows that the representatives of the employer, using his legal right to union membership, and acting as a team, have long used covert methods of capturing workers' organizations and the neutralization of their work. Confront this vicious practice of employees can only create within the existing trade union organizations of their teams, coordinated operating without registration and disclosure of their leaders.FirmerJoined: 16.10.2005 Posts: 21
 Posted: November 28, 2005 10:00 am Post subject: For AP
 Forum Les Miserables is needed for normal messages that are deleted from the other forums because of disagreements with the moderators of the masters. You're on trade unions which protect your interests - the interests of "workers" in the Lord Pruszcz one. If possible like this: Gentlemen no people in their team, without their servants and maids, without mercenaries and hired "workers" to help him and pull his money (yes both!) From all the others - from the "other." And you do not want - an alliance of working people themselves, not the bourgeoisie (succeeded in money and power) workers? On the union with his people (without parasites!) Economy, with its general, not just private property!
  KlarkJoined: 28.10.2005 Posts: 62
 Posted: November 29, 2005 7:18 pm Post subject:
 As correctly noted Vladimir. Today employees, to effectively protect their economic interests, should create their own structure. But this issue is very important to find out:A. Should they build these organizations within the existing trade unions, or out of the existing LZhEprofsoyuzov, and create their own trade unions, ie outside the existing trade unions?Two. Is it possible to create a group of active members within the union and the union to effectively counter the administration of the company, which stands on the side of the employer, and the apparatus LZhEprofsoyuza adhering to the position of the employer?Three. Can re-organizing groups of employees, with no focal point, with no linkages with employees of other companies, effectively confront the administration of the company and the apparatchiks of the LZhEprofsoyuza? It is the answers to these questions will help to develop the right tactic behavior of employees. That's just impossible to answer them on the basis of speculation, but only from the analysis of action, and that, to date, almost not observed.In my opinion, employees should act in the above two lines, all the while clearly keeping track of their interest. All the while checking on the matter, who stands in defense of their interests, and who breaks the comedy, protecting the interests of the employer. Only then will emerge, and which option is preferable.Now, with regards to that last message Firmera. This gentleman has now, and just build a worker-peasant state, Finished with different zahrebetnikami, not to fight for workers' rights. That in his opinion, a waste of time. But, I want to ask, but what he has? Does this gentleman Firmer draft of this building, whether his analysis of the existing relationship, whether the project is consistent with those for whom he was going to build this state, as to whether the conditions of modern society to implement this project and so on.Affects me that Firmer, suspecting that each worker always striving to become the master, is engaged in an empty project-mongering and nothing and nowhere is not going to do. Well, everyone has the right, at this forum to express their opinions. But at the same time speaking out and everyone should understand that by declaring a deliberate stupidity, it can become an object of ridicule. That is, everyone chooses a position to be reckoned with or not, whether it will accept as a serious opponent, or a pea jester. That shows a real choice. And everyone gets what he deserves.Guest
 Posted: November 30, 2005 3:49 am Post subject:
 Dear Klark! In the world capital of each subject (Physics and jur. Person) pulls the "blanket" for themselves. It is best obtained from those whoa) works less with their hands (in the material production) and less productive.b) Who is better organized (the owners - the employers - in gossistemu; workers - trade unions, which, de jure and de facto).Such entities are pulling money (so what!) The introduction into practice of the bureaucracy and the ghosts of "communism" (intelligence), and bid up the prices of the means of existence (speculators).In the rest of your, Klark, comments and questions will try to answer later.AP Guest
 Posted: November 30, 2005 6:28 am Post subject: Re: For AP
 Dear Firmer, your new message as I understand it, Cho stands up for you to in an Internet forum was opened with a discussion of issues excluded. No issues related to union retirees 'Les Miserables' and all sorts of problems in the Russians rejected. I do not mind, but I myself will not do that because they do not feel any motivation to initiate a discussion of global issues related to other social strata. The name of our union was given, as having a distinct protest the charge. We felt that the protest nature of our association (and association, as organizations and associations, as an action) should be evident immediately, as soon as a grain of information about our union.We are the only union with the same name in Russia. It seems that the only NGOs. So far we have not received any dividends from this, but the anger of officials and their allies felt.As for your argument about not wanting to be an employee, I do not want to be here in this topic to debate on this topic. Theme-a trade union, ie of organizations of employees, and I do not want to participate to divert the ship from its course. Especially since the Forum is already a topic where appropriate, and the controversy with your Klark'-and participation is already underway.Vladimir1 Guest
 Posted: November 30, 2005 1:04 pm Post subject: Klar-ku
 First and foremost, employees should always remember that the existing trade union organizations under the control of FNPR employer, and therefore in any case can not be trusted trade union functionaries of these organizations, otherwise all your undertakings, and the initiators and the names they were immediately become known to the employer. If you do not want to act secretly. Trust only those in whom you believe, who have proven commitment to employeesGuest
 Posted: December 1, 2005 10:28 am Post subject: Mr-Clark
 Out of the union, the All-constructed by the FNPR's TV Principles (in the same union and the workers and the employer), of course, do not. Generally, the smaller the leakage of information to the employer and officials of his team about your activities, the better you are creating an informal trade union organizations. Discuss the problems of their own, look for solutions together, "pop" the official trade union issues to deal with these problems, the official trade union leaders push to pose these questions to the employer of the employees create public opinion on the need to address these issues, formulation of these problems, the trade union committee to the employer. Emphasize people on how to actually trade union is seeking a solution of the questions. Another very important to find like-minded people in other companies and build informal contacts within the district, city or area.
FirmerJoined: 16.10.2005 Posts: 21
 Posted: December 1, 2005 11:26 am Post subject:
 Wait until the host zappustit site running. Or what?GluhovVI Forum AdminJoined: 29.09.2005 Posts: 12
 Posted: December 1, 2005 7:48 pm Post subject:
 If you have something to say - you're already in operation!Guest
 Posted: December 2, 2005 6:55 pm Post subject: Re: Vladimir-Clark
 Anonymous wrote (a):Discuss ... among its current problems, seek solutions together, "pop" the official trade union issues to deal with these problems, the official trade union leaders push to pose these questions to the employerIn this respect, to create favorable conditions for your informal union activities (and be a good disguise it) may be a collective recreation (physical education, amateur art, tourism, etc.).Anonymous wrote (a):Still ... it is very important to find like-minded people in other companies and build informal contacts within the district, city or area.Do not wait when someone will you need the organization (including political, such as the type of the Social Democratic and Labour Party), to look for like-minded people themselves, to establish contacts and build cooperation. For starters, you can establish some union voters (district, city) where you, as free citizens of a free country, you can see, invite interesting people to you and to discuss the events that interest you. It is at these get-togethers there are the necessary contacts and connections, identifies the leaders of ... The main thing - it is necessary to meet unattended superiors, to dispose of their control. Remember, what the workers spent May Day? Yes, because it was a convenient form of protest (meetings) and, more importantly, without the master's lackeys!Eugine74Joined: 16.10.2005 Posts: 6 Location: Chelyabinsk, Russia
 Posted: December 3, 2005 5:56 pm Post subject:
 All of the above is correct, but now I see and encounter in the present, the following problems:A. Ordinary workers have concerns that will be fired or "pressed" by the employer in the event of any of their "performances" (although I always cite the example of himself - has not yet been dismissed, not "punished"), and therefore behave too inert.Two. Trade Union Committee with great interest I listened, but no visible action with me on his part is not happening.Three. Most workers simply ignorant in legal terms, they are "not aware" that they also have more responsibilities and rights. Unaware that the employer has responsibilities in relation to them.4. There is NO information activities. If the "over" comes to the trade union information, it hangs at the shop chairmen of committeesAP Guest
 Posted: December 4, 2005 7:56 am Post subject: On Trade Unions
 At profforume trud.org in the "trade union solidarity, to show where and how?" open theme "Trade union solidarity against repression politseskoy" has a direct relation to the tack of this discussion, which it now is. Please read.KlarkJoined: 28.10.2005 Posts: 62
 Posted: December 4, 2005 8:56 pm Post subject:
 Dear, Eugine74, fear of the workers are quite natural, but without the protection of their interests, without the aggravation of relations with the employer, the workers get nothing. Must organize and act as a team, you need to understand their own rights, rather than waiting for someone to come and enlighten. Slow and steady wins the race. Administration and operating unions will not do it. And for those who is afraid of nobody and never will.VladimirJoined: 16.11.2005 Posts: 16
 Posted: December 4, 2005 9:42 pm Post subject:
 Eugine74 wrote (a):All of the above is correct, but now I see and encounter in the present, the following problems: 1. Ordinary workers have concerns that will be fired or "pressed" by the employer in the event of any of their "performances"This is so, and therefore can not act alone and to stick out the leaders, while workers can not work together to protect them.Quote:Although ... I always cite the example of himself - has not yet been dismissed, not "punished"It can be assumed that the administration is not afraid of you and your activity, because it believes that you have seen the bulk of the workers as an eccentric, or worse, as a provocateur, and for you no one ever will.Quote:Trade Union Committee with great interest I listened, but no visible action with me on his part is not happening.The trade union committee sees that for you no one is standing, and therefore ignored.Quote:Most workers simply ignorant in legal terms, they are "not aware" that they also have more responsibilities and rights. Unaware that the employer has responsibilities in relation to them.Not only and not in legal terms are illiterate. Above all, the majority scored and did not understand what may protect not only their rights but also INTERESTS. Wage worker today needs politucheba, not just legal education. When an employer pays an employee salary than the minimum wage (800 rubles)., It does not violate the rights of the employee, but the interests of the employee, then violated!! Who is responsible for this? The current regime! But people have something that most of them do not understand ...Quote:There is NO information activities. If the "over" comes to the trade union information, it hangs at the shop chairmen of committeesI can not agree. Information about how the team captured proforgany director of the trade union actively protect the rights and interests of workers, is widely distributed and implanted, but the education of the workers taking place in Russia exploitation of working people are not kept, as there is no information about the inferiority of our build-native-FNPR unions and when such information to someone trying to distribute, proffunktsionery FNPR do everything to prevent it from replicating (remember how strongly closed in the appropriate forum thread A.Shershukov - http://rpr.ur.ru/article/PMASH.zip)Properly configured Klark:Quote:must themselves understand their rights, rather than waiting for someone to come and enlightenIf you are ready to act, help your colleagues to find sources of information is really enlightens people, spread it.When it is very important:Quote:Employees should always remember that the existing trade union organizations under the control of FNPR employer, and therefore in any case can not be trusted trade union functionaries of these organizations, otherwise all your endeavors and the names of the initiators of the immediately become known to the employer. If you do not want to act secretly. Trust only those in whom you believe, who have proven commitment to employees
  Eugine74Joined: 16.10.2005 Posts: 6 Location: Chelyabinsk, Russia
 Posted: December 6, 2005 12:25 pm Post subject:
 Quote:If you are ready to act, help your colleagues to find sources of information is really enlightens people, spread itsI'm doing this + real changes in the state of labor protection. It is sad that the rest are interested in this name onlyAP Guest
 Posted: December 13, 2005 6:48 am Post subject: On the trade unions, solidarity.
 515 views! The topic of interest. But she got stuck on a GAPS union in the enterprise. Polemicists exhausted? Then let's move on GAPS Solidarity psychology, Solidarity ideology. It is characteristic only of the true trade unions. If anyone on this forum are not interested and did not continue the discussion in other directions, I will continue to solidarity. Later.Eugine74Joined: 16.10.2005 Posts: 6 Location: Chelyabinsk, Russia
 Posted: December 13, 2005 9:05 pm Post subject:
 AP, gladly would have participated in discussions trud.org, but:A. I love YaBB slightly less than phpBBTwo. I recorded it, but what was assumed as the login password was not (apparently feature YaBB), so I'm really confused out thereThree. In order to freely express their thoughts and "pull" other people registered on the livzhurnal, has created a community ru_profsoyuz If you can help deal with the login and password - must comeKlarkJoined: 28.10.2005 Posts: 62
 Posted: December 13, 2005 9:50 pm Post subject:
 Statement by the AP, that the polemicists exhausted not successful because, in my opinion, controversy, and as such was not ... It was not, as the Forum did not appear, no supporter of today's trade unions, no supporter of the current government and the ruling party. They can not appear, they are accustomed to act out Tishka, around the corner, not in the open. Dark night, gray economy, the money in suitcases, accounts in foreign banks, the flunky at the beck and call is their sphere of activity. And you hoped that now they will come and take you to the discussion ...I believe that to go anywhere and do not!! Here, in this thread offer more to speak to each participant according to the law on wages, it acts as a floor in our market conditions, in terms of bureaucratic domination, in which the State and the owner are on one side, and the employee is passive and unorganized, and how to act in order to achieve real wage increases, not only the inflation rate of interest.Eugine74Joined: 16.10.2005 Posts: 6 Location: Chelyabinsk, Russia
 Posted: December 13, 2005 10:59 pm Post subject:
  Well, the trade unions that act, I think there are - where the strike, work there, IMHO.AP Guest
 Posted: December 14, 2005 7:00 am Post subject: About the Solidarity trade union
 No, I did not call for trud.org. I have been misunderstood. I urge not to make the big break here. Gals - a change of direction of motion of the vessel relative to the wind, rather than switching to another vessel. Wind debate on the establishment of trade unions at the plant died out, and I offered to find another wind. Unfortunately, I had tea and I can not tell how to solve the problem of registration trud.org. I do not question-doponyal. And the Learn wanted to go to ask a question about whether it is possible to enter the community with the ideology of union retirees, and could not. In an open topic clear to me how to do it, though not tried, but with your question but could not.VladimirJoined: 16.11.2005 Posts: 16
 Posted: December 14, 2005 3:49 pm Post subject:
 Klark wrote (a):propose to comment in more detail to each participant according to the law on wages, it acts as a floor in our market conditions, in terms of bureaucratic domination, in which the State and the owner are on one side, and the employee is passive and unorganized, and how to act, to achieve real wage increases, not only the inflation rate of interest.If I understand correctly, when Clark spoke about the law, he means no labor laws, and the objective economic laws operating in society.Let's look at an example. The market sells potatoes 100 vendors, they are asking for five rubles. per kg. How will trade one of them, if it is absolutely the same for the potatoes, as all will ask for six rubles. per kg.? The answer, I think, is obvious - it will buy only the abnormal and most likely, he will not sell anything. But if the sellers of potatoes collusion (including other sellers from other nearby markets) that would not sell it cheaper than £ 6. That population will be forced to buy it is necessary for our life a vegetable to 6 rubles. Thus, sellers of potatoes can raise the price of their goods, if a monopoly on its sale. If anywhere near (within the territorial market) can not buy potatoes at a lower price (potato sellers facing death, but less than 6 rubles. Not sell), then the cost will be £ 6.But in the life of a "potato" conspiracy, virtually impossible (in fact, it is prohibited by law), so the level of vegetable prices reflects the ratio of demand and available supply. Most offer - prices are lower, less than the offer - prices are higher.Differs little from the scheme considered pricing of labor. Unemployment is rising - the price of labor falls, the demand for labor has increased, their price rises. But there is a fundamental difference between the labor market. Employees may have the right to collude and do not sell their labor power for the payment of their unsatisfying, but that workers need to establish a monopoly on the sale of its labor force, ie achieve a situation that none of them will not accept work for less than the set of collusion. The problem of trade union (union workers) - to organize and implement such a conspiracy.Eugine74Joined: 16.10.2005 Posts: 6 Location: Chelyabinsk, Russia
 Posted: December 14, 2005 4:34 pm Post subject:
 Vladimir - agree completely. The main problem - do employees. No cohesion, no desire to fight, confidence in the existing trade union there is indifference, nikomuneverie, fear of job loss, fear of conflict with the employer. Variants of our actions (given the fact that nobody is going to fund us, everything will be on enthusiasm)??AP - Learn simple - create your magazine (free of charge, information about themselves, in principle, can not), and then "enter" in a community that you are interested in (which is to anything you are not obliged, by the way) and can create posts yourself (if you wish and you can create a community). There will be questions - feel free to askAll: the eternal question: "What should I do?" I propose to develop a kind of strategy, the algorithm acts on which it will be possible to change the existing situation.

 AP Guest
 Posted: December 15, 2005 6:03 am Post subject: All in the subject.
 Eugine74 wrote (a):... The main problem - do employees. No cohesion, no desire to fight, confidence in the existing trade union there is indifference, nikomuneverie, fear of job loss, fear of conflict with the employer. Variants of our actions (given the fact that nobody is going to fund us, everything will be on enthusiasm)??That is, just about cohesion and I struck up a conversation. I do not insist on an immediate transition to this thread, but talking about it and have to be. Sooner or later. Already "too late". But it's better than ever. Eugine74, thanks for the clarification on the data I Learn.